T3 oRvR

I must admit I really do enjoy the T3 nights, but I'm finding t3 in general is pretty sad. I'm not sure what T4 is like, but I'm not hearing very good things about it. Which leads me to believe that T1 and T2 is where people have the most fun. Last nights T3 event wasn't much fun, no destro around. So I logged off considering I have no T2 toons.

I like to focus on one character, I'm not ADHD hehe so I like to work with one, but atm T3 is just sad. You read on the Warhammer forums about how people just skip T3 altogether and grind to T4. I'm still trying to wrap my head around why Order is so bad at SC and because of it Order flipping zones is like a once in a bluemoon thing. It really takes the enjoyment out of the game, when Destro flips zones so easy and order is lucky if they do it.

I'm just stubborn enough to take my time and hit T4 when I hit T4. But I was wondering if anyone has any ideas on how to make T3 better because Order in T3 is just sad. Maybe the new patch will help fix things but I doubt it because SCs will have a bigger chunk of the VP and with Order sucking at them we might never flip a zone then. oh, well what can you do. Keep checking T3 and hope you get lucky.

I understand the way you feel, Elistanus, but I'd like to say I have a different feeling about T3, T4, and the order flipping zones. I really like T1. Its like kindengarten. You don't even need a leader there. All you have to do is run around capping zones and killing destro. Much like some people SEEM to think they can do in T4. Some people never seem to grow up, eh? :) T2 is a teenage party. We have little hierarchy but now and then people follow some "cool kids and girls" as long as they are cool. And most people think T2 is the most fun because it is so light and simple after you learn what to do there. T3 is the first contact some people have with complexity. Some pleople have problems with it, because to win at T3 you need to follow... or lead. Despite what many people think about Destro, they aren't just zerging all the time. From what I observed when I lead WBs at T3, they might have a simple logic in their actions (and I loved the chess game of outwitting them), but they were logical. T3 is where you learn to follow rules, to put need before your fancies, and understand the real importance of collaboration. And I loved T3. Do you want a suggestion? Try leading groups at T3. You will find there's a lot of people just waiting for the chance to have a good fight, as soon as you start it. T4 is... well... I am not confortable talking about T4. I'm still learning its intrincacies, but as far as I know its not very different from T3 in some aspects. Just bigger, more complex. People tend to build huge wargoups there, and they tend to zerg. Zerging sometimes is like a dice game. It depends on luck as much as it depends on betting skills. But when strong leaders take the front at T4, it has the same glorious quality of T3. Fear not. Trust the family about that last part. And if you tasted the leadership at T3 and liked it, T4 will be very much fun for you too. The problem with some tiers is that some people don't really understand that you cant play Warhammer without collaboration. Blessed Be.

Be sure to come out to Saturday morning t4 familiarization. Its a great place and time to learn t4 before your dumped face first into it. All t3's welcome.

T_T I feel the urge to kill someone now, with thoughts of leading. I don't have a problem leading but order has a problem with listening and following orders. In real armies there is fear of disipline that keep soliders in line but in an MMO there is no fear of that happenning, so why listen to the leader. I will give you an example of just how self centered in game the average player is. From what I have seen Foghladha is an amazing leader he see the big picture which is a great quality in a leader. I have a simple motto in which I deal with people. Everyone is stupid until they show me otherwise. MMO have shown me just how try that is. The average War player I really don't think will survive T4 where following orders is a given. But I'm getting off topic. I logged in for the T3 night last night was pretty slow for T3 (T_T no destro around) so people logged over to T2 which is fine. I didn't because I don't have a T2 toon so I logged but before I did the people in the Warband where bad mouthing the event and saying they wouldn't come again and next time just SC instead. They didn't get what was going on because for them it's all about getting as much as they can for themselves with the smallest effort. They think that zones will magically flip if they wish for it hard enough. They don't get that standing around waiting is just as important as rushing in. Again Warhammer is a game where you need a good grasp of the bigger picture. Is it possible to route a Destro zerg with a smaller group of players? Yes but only if they listen and you have the right group. It's what I call Shock and Awe. Fast lightning strike that confuse they enemy into thinking you are bigger then you are. The point is the the quality of soldiers that one has to start with is poor there is no way to overcome that. Order in general in T3 don't have the skill needed to get things done. That being said a strong leader by sheer force of will can get it done and once people see that what you are doing works in their need to get ahead will start to listen they might not see the bigger picture but they are getting renown and inf and that is all they need for them to be happy. I will agree the outsmarting Destro is pretty fun. I'm not sure if you are history buffs but there is the story of Hannibal and the Romans. In case you didn't know Hannibal was from Spain and used elephants in battle to confuse the Romans who never seen them before. What I love about this story the the tactic he used to win one the the battles. Hannibal lured the Romans in by making his line in the center collapse when the Romans seen the line falling apart like human nature they went for the weakest point, in the meantime the out edges of the line started moving forward and completely surrounded the Romans at which point the center turned around and held their ground the trap was complete and the Roman army in the over confidence allowed themselves to be surrounded. Let just say it didn't end well for the Romans that battle. I like War because of the teamwork aspect to PVP it's what makes it fun. Just not sure if I have the patience to deal with stupid people. I remember when we were doing a guild oRVR in T2 we told them let the leaders of the WB cap the flag one of them didn't listen and when we called him out he started to attack knuckles who booted him from the war band and put him on ignore. That player went nuts in Region chat people started ignoring him. He figured he didn't do anything wrong. But that Warband that night was fun because people were listening and we dealt with the trouble maker. T3 biggest problem it seems that there are more of these kind of players then ones who will listen. Maybe I will step up to the plate more when it comes to leading, but only when I'm sure that I'm ready to do it. In any case there is nothing more that would like to do then stick it to Destro. We'll see what happens but taking a leadership roll in T3 might be the only way to get to where I want to go.

I will come out to Saturdays would be good to have an idea of how t4 works.

Keep your chin up Elistanus. If you find yourself getting frustrated, move back out of the RvR area for - and quest and PvE a bit... Just keep an eye on /3 for chatter implying a RvR push - then jump back in. I'm kind of excited about some of the changes in the next patch. One of them will be Mobs in the rvr areas. Killing them will be at a 20% exp bonus, to cover the additional risk of gettin' rolled... heh heh... I'm hoping that the mobs are gonna be located at "inconvenient" places, that will force folk to pay more attention when running around. They should make rvr fights more lively when mobs jump in and interfere - should be good fun :) As for the T4 nay-saying... I think most of that comes from the folk who recently graduated from T3. It's big and can be a little intimidating at first (because you are thrown into nine new zones all at once). Just don't let yourself get overwhelmed, and take it a little at a time. On Saturday mornings (Noonish - check caledar for exact time), the Tuatha has a "T4 terrain familiarization" group that forms up, and helps everyone ease-into T4. Last week Daghdre has us form up in Altdorf, and we walked/rode north to unlock all of the flight merchants in Reikland/Praag/Chaos Waste... while taking a few BOs on the way.

oops.. sorry for any duplications there... looks like lots of posts were made while I was typing...

I can tell you from experience. The greatest motivator is greed. Fear will backfire badly on you everytime. This is not an army. This is preschool. If you can deal with dozens of 5 year olds you can manage a pug. Candy leads children. Bribery works everytime. Same is true with zergs and the typical pugger. Now greed however will be your biggest weakness as well. So while you lead by greed you will have to be contious that destro will lead you by greed.

I'm always in Awe of Foghladha's wisdom. He's quite right. Bribery, charismatic leading, and giving people what they want and at the same time giving an impression that you're in control are good ways to lead a WB without getting mad. Greed is a strong tool, and it's used by both sides. You can, by instance, lead Destro by greed too. =) And about (real) Military History, i'm a big fan of it too. In fact I would love to find some use to Vlad Tepes' III strategies at the RVR battlefield. =) Blessed Be.

As I've mentioned before leadership is NOT about being in control. Its about the illusion of being in control while inspiring people to reach for their next goal. You can try telling a child to do something but until you inspire them they will just do the bare minimum. Leading pugs is very similar. Make it seem your in control and more will follow you. Once you have their trust you can start steering the herd. But until then hang on for the ride and call out targets with the most reward. Use their greed as a lure and you'll have something almost controllable. Regardless of what you do only half of your force will do what their told. The other half does whatever they want. Just be patient, be slow to anger, and reallize its ok to be out of control. Just always pretend you are in control. Don't let the troops know your frustrated. That part I'm still working on myself. Lead with confidence and don't make promises you can't keep. In the end you'll build a reputaion and people will flock to you and bring some friends with them.

I work most all Saturdays, soooo miss this too.

Lol idk Ben says i lead pretty well. I dont get into many fiights but the days i am tired from work i make it known i aam gogin to lead my war badn the way i want to and if you wish to follow you are welcome. Some how ii still end up with 2 or 3 war bands following my lead. It coudl be from my first two months of control all warbands in t2 when i was off work alot or it could just be alot of peopel know i do not have time to argue with them. Soldiers listen and taht is why our allaince has no problem creating awsome tatics togeather. We are Soldiers in Tuatha but the Pugs are civilians who take what they have for granted.

I understand Profyle's point of view, and despite not being a soldier myself I try to act like one (i.e. follow orders at my best skills and don't stand in my leader's way) ingame. But on the other hand I second Foghladha's words about taking it easy on PuGs. In fact I wrote a huge reply with all my theories for this thread, but a connection failure made me lose all of it. I can only remember its lasts sentences, that for me were the best ones. "Remember it's a game, and so it's about having fun. (...) and MMORPG's are about having fun together. (...) And when you're in a Warband taking objectives and locking zones, when you finish locking all zones the WB is over. The fun is in what you do during the fights and the locks. It's not a reward you receive at the end of it (like RR, XP and gear). So you shouldn't hurry. Some setbacks (caused either by your mistakes, or other people's mistakes) can add to the fun if you don't get mad and argue about them. Arguing is a fun-killer. Playing together (and playing along) is where the fun is. Take it easy. Have fun. And while you're a it, lock some zones and kick some destro heads." =)

Just to give everyone a little update. I lead a T3 warband last night is was an epic night. By the time the might ended we had 5 zone flips. Ended the night with an epic siege I think we were there for like an hour and got it was awesome. I had a blast. I bet T4 was loving us last night. The strange thing was that there was no destro around until the end of the night. Pretty much the whole night were not around. I'm not going to complain got to flip zones 5 times over the course of the night. Empire twice, elf twice and dwarf once. Best 3 night in a while.

"The biggest mistake we make is not to try because we think it's something we can't do." =) Congratulations for your great campaign, comrade! I'm happy to hear you had an epic good time. How many warbands there were? Why not write a record of what you did?

Elistanus - Great job leading last night! I drew some wife aggro with my detaunt on cooldown, so I had to log after we ambushed Destro recapping that BO in Empire right after the zone flip (boy did we surprise them and catch them with there pants down!). We should receive a big written thank you from T4! lol. Hopefully with the next patch and changes to LOTD entry, T3 should REALLY pick up!

Man what is up with T3 the last couple of days. No one is listening the WB leaders are fail the players are fail. Man these players are in for a rude awakening if they don't learn to listen. My hatred of T3 grows by the day. So sad there are people in this world that are so stupid and don't listen then they complain about the fail. 3 days of epic fail. Like today, in a WB we had a ram up but no one was in it and if you did get in it you didn't get heals and you died. Rdps was on the door not the oil. I mean simple strat to any keep taking get oil down and the door will come down easy. But they didn't listen and in the end the WB fell aport because these stupid people don't listen. They can't even follow the simple strats for keep taking. I wish I could see them when they hit T4 and do that there only to get yelled at or booted from the WB. I will say this as time goes on as I play more of Warhammer I really think closed guild WBs are the way to go. Then you can trust the people you are with to do their job and listen. I'm thinking maybe that is the way to go in T3. Run the WB how I want if people don't listen boot them. People will get the hint once they see stuff happening. Because 3 days of fail in Orvr is ticking me right off.

I understand the way you feel, Elistanus. I've felt the same many times. But people are diverse. Sometimes we get a loss of asshats in our WBs, sometimes we get many wonderful and cooperative people. The art of leading consists of learning how to deal with all these kinds of people. If people don't listen at all, there's not much you can do. Maybe give leadership to someone else and start a new WB with those you think can cooperate, and go hit another zone. If a group of people in an RVR lake serve nothing else, they still serve as distraction for Destro. =)