EDIT - Analysis removed until more conclusive findings are obtained based on conflicting information from Mystborn
EDIT - Analysis removed until more conclusive findings are obtained based on conflicting information from Mystborn
for test result 3 it is a fixed amount that scales with Base level of Stamina (not Max Stamina) so at 50 you can block more often with high Stamina.
courtesy of Phazius on TF
Combat action costs
for Opinion 4 given the data above this may make a mix of Health/Stamina a better option for a tank. health to stay alive, Stamina to keep the blocks going
» Edited on: 2014-03-28 16:38:28
(raises one eye brow) Fascinating!
Thanks for posting/performing this research, quite insightful!
Very good info. Thanks for putting the work into this!
Shhh, your giving away all my build secrets...lol, jk
Phazius from TF does not have completely accurate data. His numbers are a good working copy to estimate from, but does not indicate how costs scale. If you have 1000 stamina, each block will cost 150 stamina. At 1500 stamina, each block costs 225 stamina. This is what I found using gear swaps and attribute respecs to test this last week. Blocking costs 15% no matter whether the stamina comes from gear, base leveling, or attribute points. Of course this often comes out to less due to 1h/shield and heavy armor passives, but my testing indicated it's still a fixed percentage of your max stamina. What I did not test was food. I suspect food will increase your capacity and if so, stamina and magicka food will be a big boon.
Additionally, at level 50 you will have the same levels of natural health, magicka, and stamina regen no matter where your attributes go... it's not 2% health or 5% magicka and stamina, it should always be 35 health, 59 magicka/stamina per tick before you factor in passives and jewelry.
With this in mind, if you bring your stamina regen to the softcap of 80, you're going to be able to block more with low max stamina than with high max stamina.
Guess I will throw my 2 cents in I have a couple Vet lvl Sorcs and just glancing at the pictures and numbers I can say thet with no food bonuses My "stereotype" mage (Cloth, Staff approx 30/10/10 split) has like 5 things soft capped . Mag, Mag rec, Mag resist, Health rec, and Sta rec all soft capped. My thinking here is as a range DPS I really don't need 2200 HP so grabbing a bow or even silver shards is much more useful. Thats just the way I play that sorta build nothing is right wrong or perfect . Now I also have a leather Sorc who is like 20/10/20 because of backstabs and Dex bonuses. Me personally I am lazy and prefer to see the whole battlefield so use the first one primarily, I never want to stand there and work on my dance moves after chain casting in a boss fight. Much easier to use sta abilities and Ultimates to get Magica up.
so question? all the nightblade builds out there seem to have all the points in health .. should i follow this or put points in STA/MAG for my abilities? I plan on going either archer or dual weild dps\
Modabi, I edited my opinions with #7 above for nightblade dps.
Impressive testing. Thank you.
This is very helpful information. Thank you for testing and then posting :)
hmm I am sure I saw several people say that block had changed to a % of Base Stamina rather than max Stamina.
If it is still max then putting anything into Stamina is pointless given a max 80 Stamina Regen, you are saying that putting points into the stat to help you tank makes you a worse tank!!
Okay, not something I should've read at 0246 after a night at the pub. I'll need to reread that tomorrow and possibly pick your brain on raid call. ;)
Thanks ..that makes more sense. Dint make sense to dump them all into hp since raising stamina and magical will increase damage.
YES!!! WOOHOOO! I was so hoping the "putting points in anything but the Health attribute is pointless" was wrong and that points in the attributes DID have an affect beside adding to a pool. This makes me feel so much better. Thank you so much for figuring this out and letting us know. :)
Now I won't feel like a stubborn, resentful, fool when I put points in Magicka and Stam just because I feel that's how it SHOULD work.. lol.
What you do also need to consider, however, is this:
I can absolutely follow the math that indicates that low max stamina > high max stamina for blocking. However, this does not take into account the fact that if you use _any_ stamina-based attack (eg Puncturing Strikes, Silver Bolts, etc), that has a set stamina cost to use. Which means that the higher your stamina, the more times you can use attacks before tapping out. Given that you need to attack to taunt a mob, doesn't this affect the recommendation?
Darack. that is what I found testing it out. I was a little bit surprised by the results as well. I had 0 attribute points in stamina and blocks cost 15%, put all attribute points in stamina and it still cost 15% of the higher max. It's entirely possible this could change easily though, so thankfully respecs aren't that ridiculous.
Thank you for doing this, as I hadn't seen this information previously. Frankly I barely understand it. All the stuff about percentages and soft caps and so forth are still not coming together for me, so I am going to go with what feels right at the moment, and remember what you said, "if you get it wrong ... it's fixable."
If I read the above correctly, abilities that use stamina or magicka may seem to have a fixxed resource cost, however as it seems to state, if you put points into either of those attributes, it will increase your maximum resource pool, and it will increase the damage of those abilities that use that skill, however it also increases the resource cost to use that skill. This means if you were to increase your stamina/magicka to max, you will have more powerful damage from abilities however the trade off is that you wont be able to use them any faster than if you hadn't put points into that attribute that they use, just that they will be stronger. You will essentially use the same % of the resource to use the ability as the cost also went up with the damage increase.
So either way, their is no trade off for increasing your your stamina or magicka, you will consume the resource just as fast with smaller pool or larger pool, you just will do more damage with increased attributes, however you will also be squishier, so you might do more damage per hit but it also means the mobs might notice you more, so then you have to rely on auto attacks to balance out your unwanted aggro when grouping. It also states above that you might actually end up going through the resource faster if you put points into the resource pool because the cost % of the skill might not be as balanced as the damaged increase, however its hard to read for sure which is better in that respect without seeing actual numbers and the differences.
okay made me go digging, the link below has a video of Mystborn doing a test of stamina costs which backs up what Phazius said about the Stamina based Moves
I heard that with the last patch (release this week) they changed the % based stam things to a flat fee to make stam builds stronger (I didn't see this in the 1.0 patch notes though).
If true I believe stam becomes more important which, from most beta build I feel is a good thing.
I think it depends a lot on your characters focus. PVE might benefit more from the higher stam/magik pools since you can plan out your fight more than you can in PVP. The survivability mixed with the lower ability costs provides a cushion for you to be reactive to your opponent. So a large chunk of points in health with small bits in stam/magik might be better for PVP.
Just my thoughts! :) Glad to see people talking about this cause I was definitely unsure of putting ALL my points into health.
Spells and Abilities Stamina/Magicka costs do *not* increase as you increase your Stamina. They increase with level. At level 1 every ability has a base cost, each level thereafter it will increase by 1/7 of the base cost so at level 50 it will cost 8 times as much as it did at level 1 - regardless of Stamina and Magicka.
Blocking/Bashing/Sprinting/Dodging etc. are all level based also and are not determined by your Max Stamina. I even made a video on this very subject you can watch to see this is the case.
Dangit... my workplace constantly logs me out of sites so if I don't finish a post in time I lose it all... *SIGH*
Mystborn, I was looking through your videos (very nice!) and I saw in your damage video you showed that by increasing mag/stam max pool size using drink/food that the damage tool tips increased. HUGELY disappointed to see that really is the case... blah.
In Radgasken's OP here he mentions that changing his actual attribute point distribution changed damage. Is that damage change only because the byproduct of raising an attribute is an increased max pool size?
Has anyone done a test of having two amounts of an attribute and then using drink/food to make the max pools the same size to see if damage is different? So for instance:
Magicka Attribute 0 - Magicka Max Pool 2000 (using drink/enchants to get to same max as below) - Ability X Damage 50
Magicka Attribute 49 - Magicka Max Pool 2000 - Ability X Damage ?? (would it be 50, or would it be more?)
If those two scenarios yield the same damage in an ability I'll go cry in the corner for an hour or two. If the 49 attribute but same max pool scenario does more damage I'll be much happier with the system.
Um "In the end, it's just 4900g" really? Ok, I have just started and didn't really get to play in the beta so my little lvl 4 is thinking 400g for 10 more bag slots is outrageous. What is this only ~5Kg? Is that a joke or will money not be an issue once I get to lvl 50?
At level 19, having been spending money on armor repairs, and having bought +20 bag slots and +10 bank slots, I am sitting on around 3500g. And I vendor almost nothing. So 5k gold shouldn't have too much impact on your pocket at level 50 :)
ok so are myst's and rad's op contradicting each other or am i having a blonde moment? i seriously am totally confused about what to do with specs so far esp when it comes to healing (classes too for that matter lol). i made a mage for dps but am using a resto staff starting out, then i made a templar in cloth with a resto staff for healing. is it even necessary to change to templar and if so/not am i gimping myself investing in magicka or not lol?
Wrift, that's what I noticed too. Unless Rad's comment about attributes raising damage is just based on the fact that maximum pool is increased with attribute increases and maximum pool seems to increase damage.
I still hope though that two people with the same pool size will experience different damage numbers if one of those people has a higher attribute. And just because my brain enjoys that thought so much I'm going to act like it's true. lol
well hopefully this gets sorted soon and i'm sure it will cause it's huge once we figure it out properly lol. i mean if rad is right about the larger pool size equals more damage but wrong about the increase of % used based off of pool size then it changes the theory completely but still good to know. it would add to some peep's idea of placing all in health just because of better stats per point BUT it would tell me to max my magicka or stamina instead for up close pvp for greater burst! if the op is correct on that part then i think i know which way to go for dps but for tanking and healing not sure what to do again if he is wrong lol...
@Wrift, yes my post is contradicting Rad's post
Max Magicka/Max Stamina affects the damage of your abilities - the actual attributes points spent don't matter.
The cost of an ability is purely determined by your level (and any cost reduction passives/items you have) - increasing your Magicka Pool will *not* increase the cost of your Magicka abilities.
Check out my ESO Unraveled videos on youtube they explain a lot of this. Episodes 1&2 show what affects the damage (or healing) of an ability, later episodes have different subjects.
@Myst, ok so in your opinion does increases the size of pool increase damage? tbh, i don't see why it would even but i have no clue really lol.
@Mystborn, my findings were almost exclusively based on respecing attribute points from health to stamina to magicka, and looking at gear effects was admittedly shallow. Did you ever look into how things scaled with changes in BASE max stamina or magicka? I'm curious because I HATE to put out misinformation if my testing isn't consistent with the current mechanics.
@Wrift, yes the size of your pool affects damage, watch Episode 1/2 for that.
@Radgasken, It doesn't matter how your Max Pool is obtained, be it attribute points, gear, food - all that matters is max pool size.
The formula have (for the most part) been determined
20 Magicka/Stam ~ 1 Spell Damage ~ 1.9 Weapon Damage
(barring a few exceptions)
Each ability takes either Spell or Weapon Damage and either Max Magicka or Max Stamina to determine its damage.
I have not spent any points yet. lol. I'm only lvl 7. I imagine at some point I will spend points; but hopefully there will be a guide for each class on best ways to allocate points.
@Garyc, I would suggest not holding off. Putting points in your weaker areas will help you level, so by holding off you're just making it harder on yourself.
Just realize that how you allocate your points as you level may not be the way you want them allocated at 50. So spend them as you need while you're leveling and plan on respeccing them at 50. The cost may seem high, but I'm sure at 50 you won't feel that way.
Knock on wood, I don't feel like there are weak areas (at level 7). But thank you for the advice about respeccing at 50. If I feel a pinch somewhere, I will spend points.
When in doubt throw your points into Health IMO.
It's not the clear best choice like it used to be but it's the best all around place IMO. Every build will want some health and depending on what your role is you'll want different other attributes also.
By getting your health from your attribute points you can swap your gear to add more health, stamina, or magicka (or a mix of the three). So with a simple gear swap you can put on heavy armour enchanted with health to tank, medium enchanted with stamina to pursue stamina based physical dps, or light enchanted with magicka to heal or caster dps.
If you put your attribute points in magicka or stamina you lock yourself out of being able to go full health and end up with potentially redundant points in certain specs.